Temper Tantrums..

[Natasha]

How do you deal with Temper tantrums?

Kami (28 months - 2 years 4 months) threw a whopper of a tantrum this evening, cos I made tuna lasange (which she normally loves). :eek:
She told me she did not want tuna tonight, she asked for beans, I gave her beans, she aksed for tomato sauce in her beans, so I put tomato sauce in, and she flipped again cos she doesn't want the mato sauce with her beans. :eek:
Right, so I flipped, and sent her to her room :( , where she screamed and cried and screamed and cried for 15 mins, then she fell asleep.
I tried to move her to her bed, (I was just going to let her sleep it off) but she woke up, and thank goodness she woke in a better mood...
But I have this fear that I am raising a little terror... :eek:

What would you have done with this tantrum?

I dunno if I did right by sending her to her room and ignoring it. :confused:
I dont smack, it just doesn't sit right with me, we use time outs, though she is not getting any easier to handle with time outs - I just dont know if its working..
Is she just being a 2 year old (terrible twos) or do I have a problem on my hands?
Sorry its so long, been googling "disapline methods" most of the night. :eek:

[Elizabeth]

Sounds to me like she's testing her limits. I think you did the right thing sending her to her room. My youngest is almost 3 (she'll be 3 in August) and time outs work for her. She doesn't have tantrums very often anymore though. I bet it's the age and seeing how far she can push Mom. I wish I could give you more advice. Just hang in there. (((hugs)))

[Emma]

Whoa, you sure you wanna open my can of worms?! I'm probably the most opinionated person on parenting this side of Dr. Phil and Supernanny, LOL!

Love and Communication, you can't go wrong.

1. NEVER respond to whining. You have to NEVER whine yourself ("I gave you beans, now will you stop whining?!" in the adult whiny voice. Different than a child's but we have no idea how much we ourselves whine until we start listening for it.)
When the kid whines, you say, "I don't understand when you use your whiny voice," or, "Don't talk to mommy with that voice, please." Always use please after, for manners, but never ask or request or use please in a whiny tone. My favorite is, "Talk to me in your nice voice, please," or, "I love it when you use your nice voice."
When she uses a normal voice, praise her to high heaven for using that voice, it makes you feel so good when she talks nicely to you, excellent job listening to mommy, etc, etc.

2. LISTEN
After she uses her nice voice, listen carefully to what she has to say. My position is that they're my JOB, I have no where else to go, nothing else to do. I need to devote 30 seconds or five minutes listening.
Get down on their level when you talk. Touch her, make eye contact. Nod a lot. Say things like, "You must feel (blank). That's hard." Just listen until she gets it all out. If she can't talk, supply the words and ask her agreement. "Does it make you angry when mommy doesn't listen?" or, "Are you upset? Are you upset about dinner?" or, "You sound frustrated."
Find out WHY that makes her angry. Listen to her reasons.

3. ASK what you can do, what she needs
After she feels like you've heard her, don't say things like, "I know you're upset about dinner, but that's what we're having." You might as well say, "I know you're upset, but I don't care." Rather say, "I know you're upset about dinner. Thank you for using words/telling my your feelings, etc. What can we do to help you feel better?" Often all my kids want is a hug or drink of water. Once they feel heard and have choices/input, the situation evaporates.

4. Your turn
Offer a few choices. Do NOT give in. My choices would have been something like this (and I hold up a finger for each choice, they pick which finger or tell me their choice).
You can eat with us at the table.
You can sit at the table and not eat.
You can go to bed and not eat.
And some junk choice like
You can take a time out (for my kids, time out isn't a threat, it actually means they're free to go take a few minutes to calm down, be alone, snuggle with a blanket, whatever. Sometimes I say I'M taking a time out because I'm feeling frustrated, and I'll go in my room for a few minutes. They see that it's okay, and often tell me they need a time out or a snuggle.)

If she doesn't pick you say you'll pick one for her.

5. Repeat as needed. If she's really tired, cranky, not cooperating, you very calmly tell her she needs a time out until she's ready to talk. You're ready to listen when she's ready to tell you. Don't force her if she's freaking out.

6. NEVER raise your voice or spank. This is a hard one for me, I get loud. You use very neutral tones, and your happy sing-song voice when praising. You tell the child what the choices and consequences are, and allow a time out if needed. I do sometimes swat, but never out of frustration or threatening. If I'm out of control, I will never yell or spank because that's like a floodgate. I turn them over to dad or tell them I need a minute.

7. Set an example. Just as you can never whine, tell them what you feel. I often tell even my little ones how I'M feeling, in the same manner. Hearing me vocalize helps them learn to do it. I had a good cry this morning with all 3 of them hugging me as I told them, "I feel frustrated taking care of you by myself when Daddy is gone. I need a hug. I feel sad when you don't listen. It makes me happy when you do what I ask." They all said they were sorry for not listening, even the 1-year-old, I felt better. They didn't do a lot better cleaning up, but I was not losing it and could better cope with their dawdling.

I actually started writing down my main tips and strategies so when I falter I can look back at them and remember what worked, what I liked, etc. I had a big talk with my sister in law the other day about this same issue, and saying it all out loud, we could solidify what worked and didn't work, and I realized I needed my own list. I put it in my flylady journal. She asked me to send her a copy!

Keep it up. Listening to them, making them feel loved is #1. Giving choices and allowing time outs is #2.

Hug and kiss them everyday, even when they're teenagers. In one study of successful parents (some quantifiable criteria set by the researchers), 99% of the parents hugged their kids everday. 98% kissed them everday until they left home. Everything else was a distant 3rd, 4th, a good mix of other great techniques like listening, family prayer, together time, etc. But those were overwhelmingly in common.

Hang in there! And I got a lot more where that comes from! I think my own kids are incredibly well-behaved, respectful, responsible, and empathetic. This stuff really does work. You're not raising a terror! You'll do great. Research and asking around show it's important to you, and you'll find great information in your search. People go to school for years to master professions, we can do the same for our most important job as parents! Use what works. Keep it up!

[Timmysmum]

I saw your post and had to respond... sending hugs and encouragement across cyber space. Remember you're the boss !!

Timothy didn't really do the tantrum thing but the whiny thing Emma describes oh boy we still get that one at nearly 5.
Emma your points are all excellent don't have anything to add other than remember this is just another phase... like the teething phase and the potty training..
Good Luck and keep smiling
Sue

[lunafaerie]

We have a hard time with choices right now too (2 1/2). First one thing, then another, then melt-down. Usually when he's tired. Your description of what happened sounded so familar!
Wow Emma, I don't think anyone can add anything to what you said and so nicely too. I agree, the only time out that works for us is the Naughty Chair, stolen right off SuperNanny. But now that's what he wants, so his new thing is saying I'll sit in the Naughty Chair and then he'll proceed to misbehave. So now we're looking for a new strategy. Not raising voices and not striking are hard, and again, he's too smart, because when I do start to raise my voice, I get told to sit in the Naughty Chair.
It's kind of her age, it will get better, but probably not before it gets worse. Just remember (in the moment I know it's hard) that by asserting some independence, she's right on track developmentally.
Tania

[Emma]

Oh, I forgot:

Never give in. I would never make another dinner. By the time I offer the hard choice of this or nothing, they're calm enough to make a rational decision.
However, IF I do have to give in, I always find a face-saving compromise. I don't want to be an inflexible ogre, and when I allow the child some say in the compromise, it's better for everyone. Face-saving is a whole book by itself. You really have to be graceful with that to look assertive and giving, instead of that the kid won that battle. Takes some creative thinking to wiggle your way out sometimes.
I don't count it among my flat out mistakes, however. For those I just say I'm sorry and promise I'll try harder (not to yell, not to make them feel bad about themselves, not listening, etc).

[Emma]

that's what he wants, so his new thing is saying I'll sit in the Naughty Chair and then he'll proceed to misbehave. So now we're looking for a new strategy.I think this can still work. The naughty chair has to be unpleasant. Maybe you're not having him sit there long enough, perhaps he's getting out, or maybe he thinks sitting there can quickly atone for bad behavior.

When my kids get forced time out or naughty "spot" I don't use minutes. I personally think that doesn't work. I tell them they can come out when they're either under control or ready to do/be blank. Then it's up to them how long they stay. If they come out and misbehave again, it's back there until they're ready to not misbehave. I say, "You came out before you were ready to listen to mommy," and put them back in.

I do talk to my kids a ton. I'm constantly telling them why I'm doing things, what I'm trying to accomplish. And praise til you make yourself puke. If I say, "Put your shoes on," and they dawdle and dawdle, I praise them for even going over to the shoe closet. I praise them for taking the shoes out. I praise them for putting their foot in. It's ridiculous, but it really works.
And when you get another one, the praise works even better! "Thank you for putting your shoes on!" And all of a sudden the other one is racing for the praise too. "Good job putting your seatbelt on," and you suddenly hear click, click, click from all of them, LOL!

[sandyd]

Natasha
I could not resist in responding to this thread as well. I have 2 girls (almost 4 and 2 1/2) and I have been going through some incredible temper tantrums with my almost 4 yr old. I really cannot add to Emma because she has given you an incredible response! Awesome Emma. I am doing all of the above and it seems to be working well. I also have good days and bad days and realize that I am only human and can just try again the next day. Natasha I used to put my dd in her room for a time out and it was not working at all. After watching many episodes of Super Nanny and Dr Phil I have moved the time out spot to against the wall in the kitchen. I do use time and put the timer on because for me and my dd I need to walk out of the kitchen! The timer is a reminder more for me than her. However my 2 1/2 yr old who is much mellower child also tells me " mommy beeper, time to talk to Cassie!" When the timer goes off I then go to her and explain the reason she was put there and state the behaviour itself, I then ask for an apology and then we go to do whatever it is that we were not doing or go say sorry to her sister, etc.... If she chooses not to do this and continues then she stays for another 4 minutes and it goes on. She has only ever had to stay for 2 timeouts in a row I think twice. She now has less tantrums and horray for Super Nanny's advice!!

The other thing to remember is know your child and his/her triggers! What happened before the tantrum or behaviour? If you can predict and prevent some of the triggers within reason, the all out ones will not be so bad. Some things however you just have to do and they will get over it. She is really just exerting her independence and seeing how far she can go!

And here I thought I would not add in anymore. I guess once I start it just pours out!

Good luck and this is an awesome group for support!

[Starling]

Believe it or not, I remember when...

My daughter is 39. She turned out great. But she was a holy terror at 2. Tantrums and all.

One of the problems with 2 year olds is that they can't do much for themselves, and they want to do for themselves. As they mature, and can actually do the stuff they want to be able to do (like feed themselves with a knife and fork, or tie their own shoes) they mellow out. A 3 year old generally is very mellow. IF they have won the battles of being 2.

I used to say that being a parent is a war where you have to win the battles but lose the war. You have to stay in charge, but in the end your goal is to raise someone who can make their own decisions, so you had better let them practice in a safe place at a safe time.

Never offer a choice unless you don't care which of the choices the child makes. There is no reason not to give an 18 month old real choices, but your job is to make sure that all of the alternatives are good choices.

Never threaten anything you aren't going to go through with.

[Pam]

Natasha, obviously this is experienced worldwide. And it isn't only this generation, grandparents tell of tantrums many years ago.

We're told that a tantrum is more likely when your child is tired or hungry. Becoming harsh won't help end the tantrum and will only get you more upset and angry. Your job is to remain as calm as possible. At this age, it's unlikely that she is throwing a fit to be manipulative. More likely, she's having a meltdown in response to frustration, and trying to show independence. Most importantly, when the storm subsides, hold her close and talk about what happened.

[Janet]

Want to qualify this by saying up front that I don't have kids...but I was an early childhood/elementary teacher.

Tantrums are the WORST to deal with. But it's normal. I subscribe to the "Love & Logic" (http://www.loveandlogic.com) school of thought, and Emma's stuff is right along the same lines, so won't repeat it here.

Jim Fay's stuff at L&L has done wonders for lots of folks I know.

{{{hugs}}}

[Janet]

Oh...also wanted to share what my folks did with my sister and me...when older, with tantrums (or just being grumpy)...our time out was "Go to your room until you can be happy." ARRRGHHH!!! I HATED THAT! ;) Because if I came out and wasn't in a better mood, then back I went. It was up to me to change my attitude, nobody else. As much as I hated that, it really taught both my sister and I NOT to hold a grudge...we chuckle that we still can't to this day! LOL

[Natasha]

Thank you so much for all the replies.

I do like to think that I lean more towards a postitive parenting attitude, I dont smack her (my heart wouldn't be it), I dont raise my voice, I listen, I speak, we negotiate..
I think she is pushing the boundaries, and then of course my mom lives with me, and Ouma lets her get away with everything, and then I am the big bad wolf. :confused:
Anyhoo, tonight I gave Kami her food and she freaked again cos there was no beans. (did I mention that last week was rice)
Threw a huge fit.
So in a calm voice, I told her that she has 3 choices, she can sit at her table and eat the food I made, she can sit on the couch and eat the food I made or she can go hungry!!!!! :eek:
Yeah so she flipped with those choices, didn't like either of them.
So I dished myself up, (while she was screaming and throwing a fit) and I sat down and ate my food, she then came with her baby doll and I had to feed her and her baby doll from my plate.
So thats progress hey?

Once again thanks so much for all the replies, its reassuring to know that my princess is normal (sort of).

[lunafaerie]

Never threaten anything you aren't going to go through with.

This is great advice. My mother never gave realistic threats with us, and just the other day I heard her tell my son she was going to throw him in the trash with Oscar the Grouch. Come on! He'll never take her seriously! I am trying so hard not to do this, but when it's something you learn from your parents, you really have to be careful about not doing it to your own.

Such great advice from everyone!

[andyapc]

When my oldest daughter (who is now almost 11) was young, time out never worked. Instead, I found that taking things away made a huge impression on her. She always had 2 stories at night, and when she was naughty, I would count to 3 and if I got to 3, she knew she would go down to 1 story. It worked almost all the time - very rarely did I have to go down to 1 story. When that didn't work, I would find something else, some privilege or game or toy, whatever ...

Now with my youngest, who will be 5 in August ... time out works with her. However, I found that time out in her room did nothing - she's got so many toys and books in her room, that sending her there was no big deal. So, if I get to the count of 3, she has to stand in the corner, facing the wall, until she calms down. When she leaves the corner, she needs to calmly tell me why she was sent there and what she should have done instead. And then there's always a kiss & hug and a thank you for apologizing. (I need to work with my husband on this ... when he counts, he immediately goes from 1 to 2 - there's not even a second in between. What's the point of counting if he's not going to give her any time??)

I have to admit, though ... I yell. Sometimes I just get to that point where my head feels like it's going to explode. You wouldn't think with such a large age gap between them (almost 6.5 years), that there would be much bickering/fighting between them, but there is. They either get along tremendously well, or it's WW III. There doesn't seem to be any middle ground.

[Margie]

man, josh had some doozies!! thankfully he (and we) made it to three! :D
do remember that she's two, so she can't "make" you do anything! (had to feed her and her doll). you're the mom. :)
i try to remember how i was raised. do the things that i liked, don't do the things that i hated, but then do the things that are necessary either way. :)

[Natasha]

Thank so much once again.

We had a GOOD day today!!
NOT one tantrum!! :D
She ate all her food!
Even had a nap!!
She never naps!! :eek:
Its 8pm and she is still awake though, but baby steps, she is happily reading her books, I'm sure she will nod off very soon.

Thanks again!

[Gumavi]

Hey Natasha -

You've gotten lots of advice, so I won't add anything, but wanted to share this (http://www.digitalscrapbookplace.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=32176&cat=500&page=1) layout I made a few weeks ago - you're not alone! ;)

[Emma]

"Go to your room until you can be happy." ARRRGHHH!!! I HATED THAT! ;) Because if I came out and wasn't in a better mood, then back I went. It was up to me to change my attitude, nobody else. As much as I hated that, it really taught both my sister and I NOT to hold a grudge...we chuckle that we still can't to this day! LOLWe used to do this with our oldest daughter, she was having some sort of tantrum around age 2, so we sent her to her room until she could be happy. The two of us continued eating our dinner without her, I started thinking about a friend of mine who said she wasn't allowed to be anything but happy growing up. No other emotions were allowed, so she had to pretend and bottle things, and as an adult it was difficult to get past in her own marriage. Just as I was trying to come up with another term than, "Be happy," my husband blurted out, "I don't think we should tell her to be happy. I want her to know feeling other things is okay."
LOL! One head on two bodies...

We decided that she would go to her room until she was, "under control." Even my one-year-old knows the term now. "I unna comtol."

Grumpy is a different matter. I try to listen to what's bothering them and help them solve the issue, but if it's just grumpy/whiny, I tell them they need to go have a snuggle until grumpy is gone.

I frequently tell them how happy I am that they're happy. I point out when they're happy and praise it. Often, it distracts from what they're doing and they want to play with me instead. ARGH! So I just cuddle for awhile until they go back to what they were doing.

One friend of mine sets time limits with her boys. She says they'll play a certain game, or for a certain amount of time, then it's her turn to go sew or be on the computer or whatever. That works really well, and teaches them to take turns, and that mommy time is acceptable, that we're not constantly just giving them a quick hug and saying go play, trying to get them to leave us alone.

Gotta go, here comes a cryer, LOL!

[Natasha]

I think thats one of the problems here, Kami gets my attention all day long, I barely have time to clean the house, but somehow it must be squeezed in.
I have started getting her involved with the cleaning, bought her a vacuum cleaner, broom, mop ect, and she makes a mess helping me clean (lol)..

I think its time to look for a play group for her though, so she can get better interaction with kids, I first have to sort out the potty training.. :eek:

Any tips there?

[Emma]

stop! I could go on about that for days too. I just potty-trained my 3yo boy (started at age 2, but he's had a bunch of relapses). Now I'm training my 1yo girl using partial infant potty-training techniques. Also switched to cloth diapers recently.

So what have you tried/researched so far?

[Natasha]

We were doing really well, every evening before bath time, we would sit our potties and make a wee, then jump in the bath, then first thing in the morning, we would do the same thing, it was working well, then she turned 2 and I thought I could start training during the day as well.

Bought her the cutest panties that she adores, yet she would rather hide and make a wee in her panties, or ask for her nappy on so she can pee. So she has the control to hold it.

I have tried offering a little chocolate for after she pees in the potty, I bought her a musical potty (yeah, its driving me mad), I jump up and down like a mad cow whenever she makes a pee, so she gets plenty praise and she is so chuffed WHEN she make's a pee..
But the last two months or so, she will not even wear her panties, I even bought her more cute ones to tempt her, I boguht those pull up diapers for potty training, but she doesn't like those either..

I think I am just going to leave her for now, its too chilling here now for her to run around in panties, and we had another good day today, I am not in a rush to potty train her, when she is ready is fine by me.

Thanks again for your help.

[lyzzydee]

We have all been through the tantrums and potty training bit and you do come out the other side !

We were lucky with the tantrums, not too many and easily distracted from them. I found that giving them a limited amount of choice worked, do you want the pink toothpaste or the blue toothpaste still resulted in a toothpaste being selected and they felt they had some control.

I also found that if you give into demands, eg wanting sweeties in the shops, that they got them and then whined for something else, so its best to ignore the demands and save money !!

Potty trained, did not have bit of trouble with this, decided to leave it until they were old enough to understand and the all trained themselves in a flash once we had decided to go for it. We decided they were ready, were showing good signs of knowing what was going on and we went for it. Once out of nappies we never went back. All of mine were dry day and night by 2 1/2 which was fine by me, no stress on my part !! I sometimes think failure happens when you start them too early, they just don't have the control in most kids before 2.

If you want tantrums wait until your little darlings turn into teenagers, then you will see fireworks, and there is very little chance of putting them on a naughty chair then !!

[minni]

Oh I so sympathise with you all. My three and a half year old has only just started throwing tanties in the past couple of weeks.... and boy does she chuck a wobbly!
The worst part is that she screams out "Daddy, help me" at the top of her lungs - no matter the time of day or night. I've had to talk to the neighbours and let them know what is going on so we don't have the police knocking on the door. And all of them start over little things like wanting to hop into bed with us during the night and we take her back to her own bed or wanting to do something in a different way to what I want.
I put her on her bed and tell her that she stays there until she calms down and we can discuss things. But the screaming in the meantime is deafening.
I so hope this stage passes soon...

As to the potty training, I started putting her on the pot when she was about 12 months old but that was only at night before her bath. I don't think she really caught hold of the whole idea until about 12 months ago and then it was a breeze. Although lately.... she has been weeing herself again. She just holds on and holds on until it's too late. We ask her if she wants to go to the toilet but she says no and then ten minutes later walks in all wet. Aarrrghhhh!! I don't make too much of a fuss, I just tell her that she is too big to be doing this and then I go and change her clothes. If she does it again that day, I take away one of her treats and tell her she can have it back when she starts behaving like a big girl again.
She starts pre-school next year so I certainly hope she's over all this by then.

[Pam]

OK, my grandson is nearly 16. But my daughter is expecting -- AND I remember like yesterday these events in her bringing up. Let me just say that training is as much a case of training yourself. Don't like changing or cleaning up? Then make a schedule and follow it.

See, I babysat children and hated if they wet on my couch or made a mess that I had to clean up (because they were old enough, I thought) -- so I began taking them to the bathroom on a schedule. My daughter wasn't even a year old, but didn't want to be left out! And she was in training panties by a year old with few accidents. :eek: Another discovery was that if I got up when I first heard her stir in the morning and got her to the bathroom, the diaper was dry.

:) I trained me -- but it sure saved me a lot of work! :)

[rubberjunkie]

Emma--You are so cool! ;) I love what you wrote. That is basically what we have done with our younger two just without being aware of it. Molly is 11, Abby is 7 and they are so good. I sure hope Molly is an easy teenager to make up for her older sister who has put us through the wringer! LOL!


Tracy