May Book: Water For Elephants discussion thread

[Tina]

Please go no further if you have not finished the book.
This is a discussion thread and will contain many plot points and spoilers.

Answer any or all of these questions, please copy and paste the question, so we can follow along with your answers.

Also, feel free to offer up your own questions for us to ponder and answer or your own insights.


Water For Elephants by Sara Gruen

1. Water for Elephants moves between a story about a circus and a story about an old man in a nursing home. How do the chapters about the older Jacob enrich the story about Jacob’s adventure with the circus? How would the novel be different if Gruen had only written about the younger Jacob, keeping the story linear and never describing Jacob’s life as an old man?

2. Did the chapters about the nursing home change how you think about older people? In what ways are the doctors and nurses condescending? How is Rosemary different? How do you treat older people?

3. When you first read the Prologue, who did you think murdered the man? Were you surprised by who the actual murderer was?

4. The book begins with a quote from Horton Hatches the Egg by Dr. Seuss: “I meant what I said, and I said what I meant…An elephant’s faithful—one hundred percent!” What is the role of faithfulness and loyalty in Water for Elephants? How do different characters define loyalty? (Jacob, Walter, Uncle Al).

5. Why does Jacob get so mad about Mr. McGuinity lying about carrying water for elephants? Do you see and similarities of temperament between the young Jacob and the old Jacob?

6. In what ways is Water for Elephants a survival story? A love story? An adventure?

7. Water for Elephants has a happy ending for Jacob, but not for many other characters. Discuss Walter and Camel’s fates. How does tragedy fit into the story?

8. There is an “us and them” mentality in the circus between performers and workers. How does Jacob bridge these two classes of people? Why does each group hate another group? Does the circus merely mirror society in an exaggerated way?

9. Are you satisfied with the end?

10. In the Author’s Note, Gruen writes that many of the details in the story are factual or come from circus workers’ anecdotes. These true stories include the hippo pickled in formaldehyde, the deceased fat lady being paraded through town and an elephant who repeatedly pulled out her stake and stole lemonade. Gruen did extensive research before writing Water for Elephants. Was her story believable?

11. Rate Water for Elephants on a scale of 1 to 5.

[Jeanet]

2. Did the chapters about the nursing home change how you think about older people? In what ways are the doctors and nurses condescending? How is Rosemary different? How do you treat older people?

The chapters with the old Jacob were my absolute favorites in the book. They were funny, warm and much more interesting then the almost too predictable story from the circus. Did it change how I think about older people? No. In my world there's no difference between old and young people. What matters is what they are like. Not how old they are.

3. When you first read the Prologue, who did you think murdered the man? Were you surprised by who the actual murderer was?

I think, no I know, that everyone would suspect Marlena for the murder of her husband. I did too and yes I was surprised to learn the truth. And then again I wasn't because throughout the story I found that Rosie had much more personality and strength then Marlena ever had.

7. Water for Elephants has a happy ending for Jacob, but not for many other characters. Discuss Walter and Camel’s fates. How does tragedy fit into the story?

I couldn't really see the need of the death of Walter and Camel other then it was a quick solution for Gruen. With the circus falling apart she needed to have them placed somewhere. Their stories had to be ended somehow. They didn't die a heroic death or for some greater reason. They just happened to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Had she used the grief that I hope Jacob felt about it in some constructive way in the story afterwards I would have understood, but it just happened. Almost like she felt that the story should some kind of tragedy to be good. I felt the same about Jacob and Marlena's love story. It was build on a very weak foundation, storywise.

8. There is an “us and them” mentality in the circus between performers and workers. How does Jacob bridge these two classes of people? Why does each group hate another group? Does the circus merely mirror society in an exaggerated way?

Yes it definitely mirrors society but not in an exaggerated way. More like in a concentrated form. To exaggerate is to make something bigger/better/worse etc. then it really is. Instead we just saw all 'known types' in the relatively small group at the circus and of course Jacobs struggle of not really belonging in either of the groups.

9. Are you satisfied with the end?

Yes and no. While I did like the idea of Jacob running off to join the circus again, it seemed too easy. No questions asked, just an understanding between the two of them that of course he would join them. I don't really like it when things 'just happen'.

11. Rate Water for Elephants on a scale of 1 to 5.
I gave this 3 stars. Considering what I've written you might get the idea that I didn't really like this book. But I did and I was constantly trying to find five minutes to read a couple of pages. I enjoyed the book, mostly because of old Jacob, but I wasn't impressed. I probably wouldn't read it again, but that wouldn't keep me from recommending it to others that needs an easy, quick read to pass the time with.

Oh and another thing that kind of annoyed me was that we knew that August had a mental problem. We knew why he was mean and abusive at times. It would have so much easier to really hate him as the story's villain and accept his death had he just been a mean person. He needed help, which didn't exist back then, but still.

[kim]

1. Water for Elephants moves between a story about a circus and a story about an old man in a nursing home. How do the chapters about the older Jacob enrich the story about Jacob’s adventure with the circus? How would the novel be different if Gruen had only written about the younger Jacob, keeping the story linear and never describing Jacob’s life as an old man?


I thought they did. The story wouldn't have been the same if that part wasn't included.


2. Did the chapters about the nursing home change how you think about older people? In what ways are the doctors and nurses condescending? How is Rosemary different? How do you treat older people?


I like the kind of nurse that Rosemary was depicted to be. I like how the story gives a little insight to the inner thought process of those who are in the nursing home struggling with their current situation.

3. When you first read the Prologue, who did you think murdered the man? Were you surprised by who the actual murderer was?

I was really shocked that Rosie was the murderer! I had almost thought it was going to be someone like a worker that he had smacked with his silver tipped cane.

4. The book begins with a quote from Horton Hatches the Egg by Dr. Seuss: “I meant what I said, and I said what I meant…An elephant’s faithful—one hundred percent!” What is the role of faithfulness and loyalty in Water for Elephants? How do different characters define loyalty? (Jacob, Walter, Uncle Al).

The bit about faithfulness in this story that struck me the most was Jacob and Walter. After their friendship is forged, they seem to grow closer and watch out for each other.

5. Why does Jacob get so mad about Mr. McGuinity lying about carrying water for elephants? Do you see and similarities of temperament between the young Jacob and the old Jacob?

LOL... I thought that was hilarious. I just chalked it up to him being grouchy and stubborn, but I would suppose he was standing on the fact that Mr. McGuinity didn't actually do what he was bragging about.

6. In what ways is Water for Elephants a survival story? A love story? An adventure?

Jacob was put into survival mode for the sheer fact that his situation changed drastically with his parents' accident. He wasn't aiming for adventure, probably just running away, but he certainly was launched into adventure in the form of travelling with a circus and the colorful characters that were employed by it. I think the author sets you up to want Jacob and Marlena to eventually get together by playing on your sympathies regarding her situation with her abusive husband August.

7. Water for Elephants has a happy ending for Jacob, but not for many other characters. Discuss Walter and Camel’s fates. How does tragedy fit into the story?


I was actually shocked about the redlighting in general! I cannot believe man would be so cruel to his fellow man no matter what class or state he is in! The tragedy of Walter and Camel's death came as a shock (I didn't see it coming). And it was so violent (to me!).


8. There is an “us and them” mentality in the circus between performers and workers. How does Jacob bridge these two classes of people? Why does each group hate another group? Does the circus merely mirror society in an exaggerated way?

Wow... good question because it was so evident that there was huge division in the people that worked for the circus (and it seemed to be that way in society as well, when the story ventured in to town). Jacob seemed to remain true to himself no matter the circumstance. I also don't believe he felt about others the way the rest of the world seemed to with such division.



9. Are you satisfied with the end?

I really wanted to hear the end of his love story with Marlena. Did I miss that some where? The end didn't seem as plausible. I am just not sure that would happen IRL today.

10. In the Author’s Note, Gruen writes that many of the details in the story are factual or come from circus workers’ anecdotes. These true stories include the hippo pickled in formaldehyde, the deceased fat lady being paraded through town and an elephant who repeatedly pulled out her stake and stole lemonade. Gruen did extensive research before writing Water for Elephants. Was her story believable?

I found it very believable. I think when you mix facts in with the fiction, it only furthers the plausibility. Crazy stuff that went on in those travelling circuses, if that is the case!



11. Rate Water for Elephants on a scale of 1 to 5. [/color][/quote]


I would give it a 3.5 to a 4. I don't recall getting bored with it or zoning out. Drags a little in spots and had some content that would be considered offensive. Overall, the way she weaved the story of Old Jacob with Young Jacob brought his character to life for me.

[Tina]

1. Water for Elephants moves between a story about a circus and a story about an old man in a nursing home. How do the chapters about the older Jacob enrich the story about Jacob’s adventure with the circus? How would the novel be different if Gruen had only written about the younger Jacob, keeping the story linear and never describing Jacob’s life as an old man?

I really enjoyed 'old Jacob'. He was a highlight of the book. I loved how he didn't want to take any cr@p from anyone just because he was an old man.

2. Did the chapters about the nursing home change how you think about older people? In what ways are the doctors and nurses condescending? How is Rosemary different? How do you treat older people?

No, it didn't change how I feel about older people. I have no bias toward old people. My grandma is 91.. and made of awesome.

Did it make me feel sorry for people who are in those kinds of homes, yes. I know there are good homes out there, but this one, with the exception of Rosemary, was not one of them.

3. When you first read the Prologue, who did you think murdered the man? Were you surprised by who the actual murderer was?

Yes, I was surprised it was Rosie. I didn't think it would be Marlena or Jacob, but I certainly didn't suspect an elephant!

4. The book begins with a quote from Horton Hatches the Egg by Dr. Seuss: “I meant what I said, and I said what I meant…An elephant’s faithful—one hundred percent!” What is the role of faithfulness and loyalty in Water for Elephants? How do different characters define loyalty? (Jacob, Walter, Uncle Al).

I believe that it was a great quote. Rosie was adorable. She was very well behaved when she was treated properly, and a great friend to those who treated her right. Jacob was a loyal character- he was loyal to Walter (as walter was to him), and to Camel, and of course, to Rosie.

5. Why does Jacob get so mad about Mr. McGuinity lying about carrying water for elephants? Do you see and similarities of temperament between the young Jacob and the old Jacob?

From the book, it sounded like it was quite a trend for old men to claim that. I guess having been one who actually worked on the circus, and knowing how it was run, knew that there wasn't a person who just carried the water for the elephants, and it just irked him.


6. In what ways is Water for Elephants a survival story? A love story? An adventure?

I think it was all. For Jacob, it was definitely a survival story- going from an Ivy League college to having literally nothing, to making a life for himself from just that.. nothing. It was also a story of survival for Marlena- being with an abusive husband, and even for Rosie. It had love, yes, and adventure, yes, but mostly it was a story of survival.

7. Water for Elephants has a happy ending for Jacob, but not for many other characters. Discuss Walter and Camel’s fates. How does tragedy fit into the story?

The book was littered with tragedy. The Red Lighting was atrocious, I can't believe that happened. Basically they just threw humans away. Amazing to think that actually happened. Gruen claims that it was actually cited in historical documents. I was very sad about Camel and Walter, but I kind of agree that it was an easy way to be able to stop writing about them for her.

8. There is an “us and them” mentality in the circus between performers and workers. How does Jacob bridge these two classes of people? Why does each group hate another group? Does the circus merely mirror society in an exaggerated way?

I'm sure it does very much mirror society. From school yards with the 'cool kids' and the 'nerds', to real life with the rich and the poor. There's always been, and will always be, an I'm better than you are mentality in the world.


9. Are you satisfied with the end?

I liked the end. Maybe it was tied up in a neat little bow, but I felt happy for Jacob. He was too much of a free spirit to be left in the home.

10. In the Author’s Note, Gruen writes that many of the details in the story are factual or come from circus workers’ anecdotes. These true stories include the hippo pickled in formaldehyde, the deceased fat lady being paraded through town and an elephant who repeatedly pulled out her stake and stole lemonade. Gruen did extensive research before writing Water for Elephants. Was her story believable?

I felt that it was very believable.

11. Rate Water for Elephants on a scale of 1 to 5.

I'll give it a 3.75. I'm a tough rater